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 Moslems. What they

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Author: Olga  (---.area4.il.chicago.comcast.net)
Date:   03-12-06 01:31

I read much that it is impossible to believe arabs, Turks - or if it is easier to moslems. The girl have no with them an affair. If promises of Italians need to be divided on 10, at moslems divide them on 1000. Girls who had bitter experience with them write. It is desirable to specify links to their photo and ID. Men on a regular basis do it on women. The girl be not afraid to do it. But do it only with a cold head!

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Andy  (---.63-199-68.atginternet.com)
Date:   03-12-06 09:33

In business, I have yet to encounter a Muslim, Arab, Turk, Hindu, or any mid easterner, that would honor any kind of verbal agreement, and even try to default on written agreements. I will only do business through another party guaranteeing payment. Period !!
So Olga, I think it is part of religion, and up bringing. Really they are not supposed to have relations, outside of there own, I believe.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Karina  (---.jgora.dialog.net.pl)
Date:   03-13-06 01:27

All relies on man, from religion. I met a lot of bad men. They were different nationalities, but everywhere seizes scums.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Olga  (---.chelmsfdrdc2.ma.boston.comcast.net)
Date:   03-13-06 03:10

fine) Look it)))

http://uk.msnusers.com/TURKEYTURKISHLOVERATS----/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=7910&LastModified=4675563427625479735

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Andy  (---.63-199-68.atginternet.com)
Date:   03-13-06 06:56

well, I think the main word to remember is "infadell" anyone out side of there religon is such and can be taken advantage of (smile).

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Svetlana  (---.b18.chereda.net)
Date:   03-14-06 01:03

I have lived in Turkey for six years. My son and me worked there as a foreign relations managers for different firms. We had a work permissions.
I have to say that one part of my heart I left there.
Of course there are bad and good people, like everywhere. I met people with very high culture there. I still to have very good friends there (men and women). In real simply life they are kind for each other.
Yes, it is islamic country but not everything is bed in islam and not everything is good in our religion. I won't be able to live there for all my life but I remember all people who helped me there, who cried for me.
Yes, at internatiolal Istanbul's airport many Turkish men stay and wait for the air-plane from Ukraine, Russia and Belorussia. They would like to see our nice girls. They say that our women are very nice but very cheep. (They talk about prostitusion). Turkish men NEVER hurt any child or leave their children or family. It goes from religion. They are proud to have children...
Turkish men speak very sweet untill girl has sex with them.
Like everywhere you can find good person or men who uses woman.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Olga  (---.cmc.co.denver.comcast.net)
Date:   03-14-06 02:02

East – business thin. But I consider, that the European girls do not need to link the life to them. Friends – it is possibly, but really there is friendship between the Turkish man and woman.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Svetlana  (---.b18.chereda.net)
Date:   03-14-06 06:13

They understand friendship in different way. There is no friendship between Turkish men and our women. At the end of the end he would like to talk about...you understand.
There is no friendship also between Turkish men and Turkish women. Only if they work at the same firm, or they are students...but they won't go to drink coffe for example together (one girl+one boy). It must be a group.
Young educated people there try to go to another countries, to Europe.
I can not call me "European girl" (my smile) but I agree with you: it is too bored to link even my life with Turkish men.
Good luck.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Sam  (---.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
Date:   03-19-06 09:58

I'm an American who had lived in the US, Ukraine, Russia, & as I was born or Iranian and Armenian parents I have also lived in the Middle East and been to Turkey several times. I am not pleased with many things about the Moslem culture but I will remind you of things no one else has said so far and you as a Ukrainian woman should know. I have known personally as many as 15 Russian and Ukrainian woman, as friends and as girlfriends. Only three of these women still has her father in her life; the others either never knew their father or watched their father leave when they were children. In all my travels I have never known a culture in which men abandon their families so easily and never look back. In contrast, I have never known a Moslem family in which a man abandoned his children. From my travels I have learned every culture has its own weaknesses and strengths. I have known dishonest Ukrainian women, interested in money having relations with multiple of men, one from your own city of Dnpropetrovsk by the way, and I have know genuine, warm, sincere ones as well. I know two Russian girls from Petersburg happily married to Iranian men; one of these men decided to live there because of her. They were happy until Skinheads killed her husband in the suburbs of Petersburgs. Three years have passed and she still cries when she speaks of the seven years of happiness she knew with him. You must make judgments about relations based on people in those relations not on their religion or background.

Note for Andy: The correct spelling is "Infidel." I guess your knowledge of your language is as limited as your knowledge of other cultures.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Andy  (---.63-199-68.atginternet.com)
Date:   03-19-06 12:09

Sam, I do not attempt to understand all cultures on this planet. I only know, what I have personally been involved in. I sat, for 2 semesters of Physics at college, next to an Iranian. It was my first contact, he invited me to his home for summer, I should have went but it was not
possible at that time. I learned much about language and cultural differences. The word "stature" as used in "social standings" mean much in many countries, yet to this day.
I remember the word "Infidel" (thank you) was used many times by my lecture partner. I even questioned him about it, and he would tell me I was a fine line of it. I know that nine months, and one Iranian, does not constitute the whole of the culture, but what I have learned from him, has proven true, in every experience, sense that time.
One time I was trying to do business with men from Lebanon, they wanted to "fix" me up with "good" Lebanese lady, they told me I should "beat" her at least ones a week and she would make good wife. I thought the joked, but they were serious, and told me how to do it so no one would know.
I try to make no case against you I do not know you, I can only make judgment on my own
based on my own vision and hearing abilities.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Smiling  (---.ukrlink.net.ua)
Date:   03-19-06 14:18

Dear, Sam., in my mind there are different men in every nation and religions . Not only Russian men are leaving their families and don't have responsibility for children. I know one such moslem man. He was a partner of my sister. He is Chechen man.My sister loved this man, helped him to get residentship of S. Petersburg, got big problems from local authorities for that and could loose her career.My sister is a respected surgeon in one S. Petersburg clinica and a good looking young woman.This man got his injure in the war with Russia. My sister treated him, support him, shareing her money.He spoke a lot about his religion and was pesweding my Ortodox sister to get Islam. This man was alfonse, who has habit to use women.He was lazy, selfish, unthanskful, who likes and cares only about himself. I was telling my sister about him, but my sister loved him and was blind.I was sorry very much about my sister. They have got baby Amina. And my sister has opened her eyes and finely has understood his real meaning. He does't have responsibility for Amina as doesn't has responsibility for his daughter from the fist marriage with chechen woman.
I have known about moslem men as a hard working for their family men,with big reponsibility for children . I can really tell all ,that was the first moslem man-alfonce., who I met. It is unussualy, but it happened.
My sister left this man.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Elena  (212.116.251.---)
Date:   03-20-06 03:35

Sam, your post is very hard, but very true, I agree with you.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Olga  (---.pier41.net)
Date:   03-20-06 04:36

Sam.
I think religion it too most that education and the environment of education where the man grows. The Muslim world very severe and artful. My sister has married a moslem of the arab and has given birth to him to the son. Wedding was in a mosque. He and his friends twisted the customs as they would like. He was the student here. Then when he leaved he has said that to survive in our country he as a dog is ready on all bad acts. He has left and has not said goodbye at all to the son and any more does not write 3 years. And such examples of thousand and thousand

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Sam  (---.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
Date:   03-20-06 08:00

Reading the direct emails and posts in response to what I wrote, I suppose I was not clear enough. I see several posts here about how one Moslem man someone knows has behaved without honor to his woman and family. I do not doubt that such men exist. My point was a simpler and more basic one: it is not religion that makes men what they are; it is their culture. Even then, there are differences from person to person. I spent two years in long-distance relations with three Russian and Ukrainian women who lied and cheated me. I supported one for six months before I realized she was in relations with a casino owner who abused her but also gave her money. Another allowed our relation grow until my third trip when I waited at the train station for hours without any sign of her. Days later, I discovered all along she had had a Russian boyfriend who would not marry her until he discovered about me and saw he could lose her to me. The third story is even more sad and longer. I spent more than a year and nearly $30,000 in seven trips and expenses and monetary help to Slavic women who were not sincere and cheated me. Did I make a general conclusion about all Russians and Ukrainian? No I did not. I spent another year living in Russia and traveled to many of its cities, made many friends and saw AGAIN that until you know many many people from a culture you cannot make judgments about them. I now know Russians who are my dearest friends; I now know Russian women unlike the girls I met via internet. DESPITE my terrible experience with the first three ladies, I am now convinced I want to marry a Russian woman, because I now know from personal experience how Slavic women are GENERALLY SPEAKING feminine, hard-working, patient, and tender. Simply said, you cannot form general opinions about people of a culture until you know a lot of them.

Having said all that, I will still stand by what I said in the earlier post. Russian men are Christians and so are American men, but they are entirely different men… again because it is not religion but their cultures that makes them what they are. Turkish men are Moslem and so are Saudi men, but again they are entirely different cultures. American men are fair-minded, treat their wives as equals, and despite a 40 percent divorce rate in the US the great majority of American men continue to care for their children after divorce. It is true we have laws that force these men to help financially; but these men continue to be present in the lives of their children with feelings. From what I saw in Russia, and according to Putin’s own speech last year about the decline of Russian culture and family, there is a divorce rate of about 70 percent across Russia and the great majority of men who divorce simply disappear from their family life. The simple fact is a Russian or Ukrainian man who is financially able and who does not drink himself silly is a rare creature. There are fewer men to begin with; and there are too many beautiful Russian and Ukrainian women. I have lived there and I know. So Russian men are mostly as reliable as their options: if they are successful and healthy, they can have anyone and as many women as they want. I personally know married Russian businessmen who have apartments in different cities with young women as girlfriends in each city. They don’t behave this way because they are Christians or Russian: it is the reality of their culture at least for now. Russian culture has changed and so the men behave differently.

So, you can all write to me about the one Moslem man you know who did something terrible to some Slavic woman. All I have to say to it is this: the Moslem families are growing at a rate of nearly 100 percent every 17 years. Countries like Turkey, Iran will more than double their population when Russia is expected to have a population loss of 50 million by 2035; that is 30 percent less people in the next 30 years! It is worse for Ukraine. Ask yourselves who is taking care of these increasing Moslem families? Their governments have no programs for abandoned children. Ask yourself why Russia and Ukraine are losing population. I know Russian men who will work two jobs and raise a family with care; so it is possible. But most choose differently: those who don’t want to work hard choose to feel sorry for themselves, drink and smoke and hate their women who want to marry foreigners. Those who are wealthy decide to use as many women as they can. I do not like some things about the Moslem culture myself; but knowing their culture, the American and the Slavic culture as well as I do, I will say again, in general Moslems behave with more sense of family responsibility than Slavic men. It is their culture, not their religion.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Andy  (---.63-199-68.atginternet.com)
Date:   03-20-06 20:18

Very good post Sam,
But don't you believe that Religion directs culture? Look at the USA, they took Religion out of the government law, and the divorce rate goes up, so you would say America's culture has changed. Because it has, in the last 60 years, very much. But again, people from all over the world, and from all religions, want to live here, some blend, and others congregate, and try to
do the same as they did in their country, and friction develops. The school, must now allow
head scarf to some, where it was against the rule, for any one to wear them before. Friction, not uniformity. I believe it is same in all countries, Each has it own characteristics, and want's to protect them, and most are do to "religion".
Im done (smile), all should get back to problems, on the thread.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Olga  (---.pier41.net)
Date:   03-20-06 23:25

Fools study only on the mistakes, and clever on another's. I think it is necessary to speak about personal experience. The forum to share this experience, let and unsuccessful. I communicated with 10 people from Muslim culture and the script of acquaintance and dialogue at each of them absolutely identical, they as twins:))) I absolutely agree with Andy - religion - culture of the person and she imposes the big print on the person.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Sam  (---.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
Date:   03-21-06 14:54

Andy. Religion does not inform a culture; it is culture that informs religious beliefs. Divorce rates went up in America because of the social changes in the sixties and seventies. The excesses of the sixties and seventies and the unchecked sexual freedoms we found in this country were the reason why so many people have suddenly become re-born Christians in America. These people who could not manage their chaotic lives tried to find a value system that could guide them? The religious right in today’s America is nothing more than the joining of the old Puritans chronically afraid of the liberal media and attitudes and those ex-liberals burnt out by their own misdeeds and excesses, now finding some structure in religious beliefs. The re-born Christians today are proof of my point: it is social changes that inform and shape religious beliefs. Every man, every society and every generation will find in religion what it needs to deal with the realities & needs of its time. All religions are interpreted based entirely on the specific needs of certain people in need of change. That is not simply my opinion; allow me to quote two other people. Carl Marx said, “Religion is the opium of the masses.” What does that mean except that people driven by social chaos find refuge in religion? If that is too socialistic for you, allow me to quote John Lennon who said, “People channel their despair, their pain and their broken hopes into religion.” I am a student of political science, psychology and International relations; I have two university degrees and I have been thinking about these things for a very long time.

To illustrate the point further, ask yourself if the Christians we are today are what we were 100 years ago in America? The evangelical movement of today performing miracles on TV and fooling people to make money would have been burnt on the stake in the Spanish inquisition as heretics and would have been shocking to even the Christians of our country only 50 years ago. So what is Christianity in America” Isn’t it a mirror or the social changes and the needs that arise from those changes in OUR TIME? Christianity today is a MIRROR of who we are culturally. The scarf-wearing issue you mention itself actually proves my point: minorities who feel snubbed and defined in pejorative stereo-types will develop a heightened sense of being different and in defiance try to develop a social character of contradiction of the majority values: the Moslems begin to demand head-scarves; the blacks want Ebonics taught in school; and the Hispanics want Spanish as the primary language of education in Hispanic neighborhoods! Once again, these political and religious attitudes are based entirely in social pressures and experiences.

Now having said that, I do not mean to say that even a person’s culture can determine his religion and his beliefs and paths in life. We are not empty shells in which society pours its own mixture of religious and cultural values to make us into a copy of those around us. We all have an indefinable, intangible, but powerful element within us that chooses from the cultural and religious values around us only those things that it needs to complete a path in life…. Call this element anything you want, as different cultures call it different things anyway: Christians & Jews call it the soul, the Hindus call it the imprint of past lives; and our Indians call it the spirit. Whatever you call it, and no matter how intangible it may be, it is there and it does not allow us to be the same as those around us. That is why we are different from our brothers and sisters and parents: that is why Ronald Reagan’s son is a liberal, secular activist when his parents were the foundation of the ultra conservative and religious movement in this country. That is why you are different from your siblings and sometimes you cannot even understand them. That is my point in all my posts: my education and my direct experience of living in so many cultures has taught me this over and over: there are some similarities in basic attitudes among most people in a society, but there will always be large differences from person to person, and more importantly, there will always be some who contradict everything you assumed about his culture and/or his religion. There is no simple way of looking into another person’s mind and heart until you have befriended that person directly. Those who with superficial experience like Olga here try to pigeon-hole people into simple statements or singular identity only cause prejudice, wars, and failure of communication to reach any common ground.

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Olga  (---.northstate.net)
Date:   03-22-06 06:28

Sam I too have the Internet and access to dissertations))) I have the opinion and opinions of millions women on it. Statistics the biggest not a fair thing which I know)))

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 Re: Moslems. What they

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Author: Blaine  (---.ph.ph.cox.net)
Date:   03-30-06 11:08

There is separation between church-state-and individual preferences. I am way over 21,as many of you are,and what I have learned in life has nothing to do with culture. As most of you ( Americans ) know--the only real culture we have relates to our holiday celebrations. Some people go to Catholic mass,some have Mormon " family home evening", where the family gathers to discuss domestic subjects. Some people attend Baptist "revivals". I also believe that children are virtual "empty shells" who,like sponges soak up adult information. Some of these children smoke cigarettes because they have witnessed adults in the act. Sone curse like truck drivers--again,because they emulate their parents. This is heritage and tradition. I like to polka-because this is german native culture,and the nationalistic Germans,whether evil ( they did not starve Ukranians--Stalin did ) or not--are proud of their culture. More culture--the saffron bread my Swedish grandma baked--the recipe lost through time and her death. America is a melting pot bereft of culture,but badly needing it. We are given many choices in life,and in our minds there is the sifting and weighing of particular charicteristics. My dad was an abuser. I reject my father`s principles because of experience and choice. Not only do I not tolerate people who bloody their children--I step in,even if this means getting my teeth knocked out. This is a simple choice based on experience--not culture,tradition or heritage. We are different because we choose to be!! How do we learn from these choices? Be disrespected by your beloved--find that disrespectful behavior is intolerable!! Be a thief---experience the pain when something precious is stolen from you!! Be a liar---hurt because your closest friend spoke untruly about you. There are no "sacred ( INdian ) cows for me--no subject not worthy of debate. In the song "No Apologies",Kurt Cobain sings."All we know is all we are". Here`s to the expansion of our minds and experiences!!!!

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